Discussion:
Care and confinement in a Norwegian prison
(too old to reply)
Trond Johannesen
2004-06-21 23:06:14 UTC
Permalink
Care and confinement (By Trond Johannesen)
http://www.straffet.com/eng/index.htm
Prison Officer since I left Norwegian Correctional Service Staff Academy in
1988. I work in Bergen Prison the Osterøy unit. Total prison capacity in
Norway is less than 3000 and all prisons are financed and administered by
the State.

Norwegian Correctional Service Staff Academy (www.krus.no) has some 200
officers under training at any given time. The training lasts for two years,
consisting both periods of lectures and studies as well as of practical
working experience at establishments in the Correctional Service. I guess
this is the longest education for prison officers in the world. Both males
and females are encouraged to apply. The Academy gives training in
professional conduct, and development of character and personality is
emphasized.

Bergen Prison (www.bergenfengsel.no) is a high security prison (closed
prison). It has 227 inmates in every category of security; included are 62
in low security. It is a modern, dynamic, interactive prison regarding
treatment of prisoners and use of methods. Material conditions are of high
standard and the majority of the inmates can participate in a range of
activities.

The inmates have a diversity of different personal resources and
qualification. Bergen Prison is build for differentiation and progression in
serving a sentence. This structure can give the inmate a possibility to
serve in up to fem steps. From the A unit were inmates mostly are remanded
in custody, to the B unit were inmates are serving their sentence, and than
proceeded to the C unit. The C unit is a contract section. Serving on
contract is a "Mutual Agreement Programming", and an alternative way of
serving a sentence. The inmates agree with the prison management to stay
away from drugs while they are serving their sentence. The aim of contract
serving is to keep the inmates drug-free while they are serving their
sentence. From the C unit further to the Osterøy Unit a low security unit.
And at the end the inmates are serving in the day-release unit, the D unit,
the day-release unit is a low security unit where inmates work or go to
school outside the prison during the day. In the afternoon and evening they
must be in the unit. Our goal is to have the right inmate in the right unit
at the right time.

I work in a low security unit in the Prison, where the threshold to society
are very low. Bergen Prison Osterøy unit is an open institution, with
minimum security. A prison without-bars. In the unit we have 27 male and 4
female inmates. Inmates, who want to serve their sentence in The Osterøy
unit, have to apply. Application for transfer to The Osterøy unit is done
from the prison, where the inmate has started serving his or her sentence.
Inmates with long sentences are given priority. Today the average length of
sentence of our inmates are 4,5 years. The unit is located on an island,
Ulvsnesøy in one of Norway's many fjords. Ulvsnesøy has been a closed
society ever since the government established a center for delinquents here
in 1882. To relieve the prison system, it was converted into a gaol in 1980,
and since it's been largely inaccessible to most right-minded citizens. The
only way you can see the natural splendour of the Island in its entirety is
if you've broken the law.

Inmates move about freely and live in wooden houses. Only the animals ever
spend time behind bars at Ulvsnesøy. Instead they move about in the open
from 7 AM till 11 PM, tending to their chores. The inmates are obligated to
work or get an education. On the island there are many old buildings, where
the inmates are doing the maintenance. We also have a small farm with sheep,
pigs, fowl and one horse. Inmates who are not working are getting an
education. Division Osterøy offers primary and lower secondary school
education. Some are also taking general subjects. My experience is that the
more education received, the less likely an individual is to be re-arrested
or re-imprisoned.

They live in small wooden houses equipped with 4 - 6 bedrooms, a bathroom, a
kitchen and a living room. Each place is a home where doors are never
locked. Inmate at our unit is better behaved and less likely to engage in
violence.
Unlike a closed prison an open prison like The Osterøy unit is designed
primarily to reward good behaviour with greater trust and meaningful work.
Here inmates have signed a contract to stay away from drugs and they've
agreed to random urine tests and breathalysers or alcohol tests any time of
day, and if the test should show positive, they're back in the high security
unit. In return they receive more generous visiting rights, longer leave and
greater personal freedom.

Osterøy unit give the inmate a possibility to serve in an environment free
from narcotics. Meaningful serving of the sentence in an active, positive
and drug-free environment is emphasised as one of the most important
advantages of this form of serving. Inmates also have an obligation to
contribute to a good environment in the unit and a clear obligation for good
behaviour. Many inmates find these obligations to be advantages rather than
"duties". Our aim is to increase the inmate's ability to manage a life
without drugs and crime after they have been released. We want to give the
inmates an education and give them a more positive view on life and society.

To resist and not succumb to drugs is very difficult. Still it is clear that
we have achieved an exemplary model of prisoner confinement. The whole
system in the unit is aimed at the possibility of rehabilitation, of
returning to normal life. And here we involuntarily believe that it truly is
rehabilitation, and not punishment. Inmates need the maximum adjustment to
normal life before leaving prison, I believe, and this is not at all easy
after a long term. That is why the Osterøy unit have such a free regime. It
is in society's interest to get back a full-fledged citizen. It's better to
have that kind of neighbour than someone who spent many years in a cellar
and wants revenge on society.

Many of the inmates also participate in the "Program activity" were the aim
are crime prevention. Osterøy unit offers tree courses, "New Start", which
is based on "Cognitive Skills Training Program" after a Canadian model. The
program includes 36 sessions, each 2 hours. The purpose is to teach every
single participant to show a more conscious attitude regarding his own
future, through focus on what shapes life, namely the decisions we make. We
also have a Canadian substance drug program and an English Anger management
program. These courses are the prison officer's responsibility.

The unit have 28 employees. A principal officer is the leader of the
division. Osterøy unit also has a welfare officer, a leader of leisure
activities, working foreman and Prison officers. An essential part of the
job of a Prison officer is to support and motivate inmates to use their
period of incarceration constructively. This includes positive use of the
period in prison and post-release plans, which the inmate and the prison
will actively follow up. I believe that the only rehabilitation that could
work properly would be individual treatment. Inmates do respond to
rehabilitative efforts aimed at personal and individual correction or
behaviour modification. I supervise inmates and do a lot of environmental
work. Like all Prison Officers, I carry no sidearm, baton or other
accoutrements of power. The only thing I have in my belt is a key and a
cell-phone. I do not ware uniform. To work close together with other people
are demanding, but also rewarding. I believe that prisons are a reflection
of the society.
The ethical foundation says that penal reactions are to be humanely enforced
in ways that ensure both the well-being and the safety of society. The
inmates are to be protected against unfair and arbitrary reactions. The
enforcement of sentence or order is to be based on the needs and the total
life situation of the inmate and is aimed at giving full support to his or
her efforts to live a law-abiding life and based on humanity, legal
protection and equality before the law.


Trond Johannesen http://www.straffet.com
Joe
2004-06-21 23:29:27 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the info. European's are geniuses. But you're wasting you're
breath in here, because mostly it's all people from the US, we've got
2,000,000 cows in the barn and the only one getting milked is John Q
Taxpayer.

Our approach toward inmates is similar to our approach toward the indigenous
people who once lived here - "The only good inmate is a dead inmate". Now,
while that may seem cruel, and perhaps it is, it might just make a damn fine
movie one day so lets just leave it alone and see how this thing plays out.

Shall we ?
Post by Trond Johannesen
Care and confinement (By Trond Johannesen)
http://www.straffet.com/eng/index.htm
Prison Officer since I left Norwegian Correctional Service Staff Academy in
1988. I work in Bergen Prison the Osterøy unit. Total prison capacity in
Norway is less than 3000 and all prisons are financed and administered by
the State.
Norwegian Correctional Service Staff Academy (www.krus.no) has some 200
officers under training at any given time. The training lasts for two years,
consisting both periods of lectures and studies as well as of practical
working experience at establishments in the Correctional Service. I guess
this is the longest education for prison officers in the world. Both males
and females are encouraged to apply. The Academy gives training in
professional conduct, and development of character and personality is
emphasized.
Bergen Prison (www.bergenfengsel.no) is a high security prison (closed
prison). It has 227 inmates in every category of security; included are 62
in low security. It is a modern, dynamic, interactive prison regarding
treatment of prisoners and use of methods. Material conditions are of high
standard and the majority of the inmates can participate in a range of
activities.
The inmates have a diversity of different personal resources and
qualification. Bergen Prison is build for differentiation and progression in
serving a sentence. This structure can give the inmate a possibility to
serve in up to fem steps. From the A unit were inmates mostly are remanded
in custody, to the B unit were inmates are serving their sentence, and than
proceeded to the C unit. The C unit is a contract section. Serving on
contract is a "Mutual Agreement Programming", and an alternative way of
serving a sentence. The inmates agree with the prison management to stay
away from drugs while they are serving their sentence. The aim of contract
serving is to keep the inmates drug-free while they are serving their
sentence. From the C unit further to the Osterøy Unit a low security unit.
And at the end the inmates are serving in the day-release unit, the D unit,
the day-release unit is a low security unit where inmates work or go to
school outside the prison during the day. In the afternoon and evening they
must be in the unit. Our goal is to have the right inmate in the right unit
at the right time.
I work in a low security unit in the Prison, where the threshold to society
are very low. Bergen Prison Osterøy unit is an open institution, with
minimum security. A prison without-bars. In the unit we have 27 male and 4
female inmates. Inmates, who want to serve their sentence in The Osterøy
unit, have to apply. Application for transfer to The Osterøy unit is done
from the prison, where the inmate has started serving his or her sentence.
Inmates with long sentences are given priority. Today the average length of
sentence of our inmates are 4,5 years. The unit is located on an island,
Ulvsnesøy in one of Norway's many fjords. Ulvsnesøy has been a closed
society ever since the government established a center for delinquents here
in 1882. To relieve the prison system, it was converted into a gaol in 1980,
and since it's been largely inaccessible to most right-minded citizens. The
only way you can see the natural splendour of the Island in its entirety is
if you've broken the law.
Inmates move about freely and live in wooden houses. Only the animals ever
spend time behind bars at Ulvsnesøy. Instead they move about in the open
from 7 AM till 11 PM, tending to their chores. The inmates are obligated to
work or get an education. On the island there are many old buildings, where
the inmates are doing the maintenance. We also have a small farm with sheep,
pigs, fowl and one horse. Inmates who are not working are getting an
education. Division Osterøy offers primary and lower secondary school
education. Some are also taking general subjects. My experience is that the
more education received, the less likely an individual is to be re-arrested
or re-imprisoned.
They live in small wooden houses equipped with 4 - 6 bedrooms, a bathroom, a
kitchen and a living room. Each place is a home where doors are never
locked. Inmate at our unit is better behaved and less likely to engage in
violence.
Unlike a closed prison an open prison like The Osterøy unit is designed
primarily to reward good behaviour with greater trust and meaningful work.
Here inmates have signed a contract to stay away from drugs and they've
agreed to random urine tests and breathalysers or alcohol tests any time of
day, and if the test should show positive, they're back in the high security
unit. In return they receive more generous visiting rights, longer leave and
greater personal freedom.
Osterøy unit give the inmate a possibility to serve in an environment free
from narcotics. Meaningful serving of the sentence in an active, positive
and drug-free environment is emphasised as one of the most important
advantages of this form of serving. Inmates also have an obligation to
contribute to a good environment in the unit and a clear obligation for good
behaviour. Many inmates find these obligations to be advantages rather than
"duties". Our aim is to increase the inmate's ability to manage a life
without drugs and crime after they have been released. We want to give the
inmates an education and give them a more positive view on life and society.
To resist and not succumb to drugs is very difficult. Still it is clear that
we have achieved an exemplary model of prisoner confinement. The whole
system in the unit is aimed at the possibility of rehabilitation, of
returning to normal life. And here we involuntarily believe that it truly is
rehabilitation, and not punishment. Inmates need the maximum adjustment to
normal life before leaving prison, I believe, and this is not at all easy
after a long term. That is why the Osterøy unit have such a free regime. It
is in society's interest to get back a full-fledged citizen. It's better to
have that kind of neighbour than someone who spent many years in a cellar
and wants revenge on society.
Many of the inmates also participate in the "Program activity" were the aim
are crime prevention. Osterøy unit offers tree courses, "New Start", which
is based on "Cognitive Skills Training Program" after a Canadian model. The
program includes 36 sessions, each 2 hours. The purpose is to teach every
single participant to show a more conscious attitude regarding his own
future, through focus on what shapes life, namely the decisions we make. We
also have a Canadian substance drug program and an English Anger management
program. These courses are the prison officer's responsibility.
The unit have 28 employees. A principal officer is the leader of the
division. Osterøy unit also has a welfare officer, a leader of leisure
activities, working foreman and Prison officers. An essential part of the
job of a Prison officer is to support and motivate inmates to use their
period of incarceration constructively. This includes positive use of the
period in prison and post-release plans, which the inmate and the prison
will actively follow up. I believe that the only rehabilitation that could
work properly would be individual treatment. Inmates do respond to
rehabilitative efforts aimed at personal and individual correction or
behaviour modification. I supervise inmates and do a lot of environmental
work. Like all Prison Officers, I carry no sidearm, baton or other
accoutrements of power. The only thing I have in my belt is a key and a
cell-phone. I do not ware uniform. To work close together with other people
are demanding, but also rewarding. I believe that prisons are a reflection
of the society.
The ethical foundation says that penal reactions are to be humanely enforced
in ways that ensure both the well-being and the safety of society. The
inmates are to be protected against unfair and arbitrary reactions. The
enforcement of sentence or order is to be based on the needs and the total
life situation of the inmate and is aimed at giving full support to his or
her efforts to live a law-abiding life and based on humanity, legal
protection and equality before the law.
Trond Johannesen http://www.straffet.com
rl
2004-06-22 02:35:08 UTC
Permalink
I've got a better idea.

Let's all pay homage to the Great and Venerable Europeans who are smarter,
better educated, smell better, are more wonderful, drive better cars, live
longer, have better marriages, paint better, invent better, eat better food,
are more tolerant, have the good sense to make drugs legal, are more wise,
and are <just about any standard you want to put in> better than anything in
America.

We can all tell things are better in Europe because of the mass exodus of
Americans emigrating there.

I guess when the day comes that I think things are better there, I'll be
moving to....but that day hasn't happened for me yet.

You see I lived there for two years.

And while I loved all the beautiful, wonderful things I saw and loved all
the wonderful people (except for the fucked up French) I met....to me, it
couldn't compare to the USA.

So I guess I'll just have resign myself to the fact that I'm going to be
scoffed at, ridiculed, be the object of hatred, harassed, kidnapped,
beheaded, etc. etc. if I'm going to continue to live in the most prosperous,
powerful nation the world has ever known.

I guess I'll just live with it.
Post by Joe
Thanks for the info. European's are geniuses. But you're wasting you're
breath in here, because mostly it's all people from the US, we've got
2,000,000 cows in the barn and the only one getting milked is John Q
Taxpayer.
Our approach toward inmates is similar to our approach toward the indigenous
people who once lived here - "The only good inmate is a dead inmate". Now,
while that may seem cruel, and perhaps it is, it might just make a damn fine
movie one day so lets just leave it alone and see how this thing plays out.
Shall we ?
Post by Trond Johannesen
Care and confinement (By Trond Johannesen)
http://www.straffet.com/eng/index.htm
Prison Officer since I left Norwegian Correctional Service Staff Academy
in
Post by Trond Johannesen
1988. I work in Bergen Prison the Osterøy unit. Total prison capacity in
Norway is less than 3000 and all prisons are financed and administered by
the State.
Norwegian Correctional Service Staff Academy (www.krus.no) has some 200
officers under training at any given time. The training lasts for two
years,
Post by Trond Johannesen
consisting both periods of lectures and studies as well as of practical
working experience at establishments in the Correctional Service. I guess
this is the longest education for prison officers in the world. Both males
and females are encouraged to apply. The Academy gives training in
professional conduct, and development of character and personality is
emphasized.
Bergen Prison (www.bergenfengsel.no) is a high security prison (closed
prison). It has 227 inmates in every category of security; included are 62
in low security. It is a modern, dynamic, interactive prison regarding
treatment of prisoners and use of methods. Material conditions are of high
standard and the majority of the inmates can participate in a range of
activities.
The inmates have a diversity of different personal resources and
qualification. Bergen Prison is build for differentiation and
progression
Post by Joe
in
Post by Trond Johannesen
serving a sentence. This structure can give the inmate a possibility to
serve in up to fem steps. From the A unit were inmates mostly are remanded
in custody, to the B unit were inmates are serving their sentence, and
than
Post by Trond Johannesen
proceeded to the C unit. The C unit is a contract section. Serving on
contract is a "Mutual Agreement Programming", and an alternative way of
serving a sentence. The inmates agree with the prison management to stay
away from drugs while they are serving their sentence. The aim of contract
serving is to keep the inmates drug-free while they are serving their
sentence. From the C unit further to the Osterøy Unit a low security unit.
And at the end the inmates are serving in the day-release unit, the D
unit,
Post by Trond Johannesen
the day-release unit is a low security unit where inmates work or go to
school outside the prison during the day. In the afternoon and evening
they
Post by Trond Johannesen
must be in the unit. Our goal is to have the right inmate in the right
unit
Post by Trond Johannesen
at the right time.
I work in a low security unit in the Prison, where the threshold to
society
Post by Trond Johannesen
are very low. Bergen Prison Osterøy unit is an open institution, with
minimum security. A prison without-bars. In the unit we have 27 male
and
Post by Joe
4
Post by Trond Johannesen
female inmates. Inmates, who want to serve their sentence in The Osterøy
unit, have to apply. Application for transfer to The Osterøy unit is done
from the prison, where the inmate has started serving his or her sentence.
Inmates with long sentences are given priority. Today the average length
of
Post by Trond Johannesen
sentence of our inmates are 4,5 years. The unit is located on an island,
Ulvsnesøy in one of Norway's many fjords. Ulvsnesøy has been a closed
society ever since the government established a center for delinquents
here
Post by Trond Johannesen
in 1882. To relieve the prison system, it was converted into a gaol in
1980,
Post by Trond Johannesen
and since it's been largely inaccessible to most right-minded citizens.
The
Post by Trond Johannesen
only way you can see the natural splendour of the Island in its entirety
is
Post by Trond Johannesen
if you've broken the law.
Inmates move about freely and live in wooden houses. Only the animals ever
spend time behind bars at Ulvsnesøy. Instead they move about in the open
from 7 AM till 11 PM, tending to their chores. The inmates are obligated
to
Post by Trond Johannesen
work or get an education. On the island there are many old buildings,
where
Post by Trond Johannesen
the inmates are doing the maintenance. We also have a small farm with
sheep,
Post by Trond Johannesen
pigs, fowl and one horse. Inmates who are not working are getting an
education. Division Osterøy offers primary and lower secondary school
education. Some are also taking general subjects. My experience is that
the
Post by Trond Johannesen
more education received, the less likely an individual is to be
re-arrested
Post by Trond Johannesen
or re-imprisoned.
They live in small wooden houses equipped with 4 - 6 bedrooms, a
bathroom,
Post by Joe
a
Post by Trond Johannesen
kitchen and a living room. Each place is a home where doors are never
locked. Inmate at our unit is better behaved and less likely to engage in
violence.
Unlike a closed prison an open prison like The Osterøy unit is designed
primarily to reward good behaviour with greater trust and meaningful work.
Here inmates have signed a contract to stay away from drugs and they've
agreed to random urine tests and breathalysers or alcohol tests any time
of
Post by Trond Johannesen
day, and if the test should show positive, they're back in the high
security
Post by Trond Johannesen
unit. In return they receive more generous visiting rights, longer leave
and
Post by Trond Johannesen
greater personal freedom.
Osterøy unit give the inmate a possibility to serve in an environment free
from narcotics. Meaningful serving of the sentence in an active, positive
and drug-free environment is emphasised as one of the most important
advantages of this form of serving. Inmates also have an obligation to
contribute to a good environment in the unit and a clear obligation for
good
Post by Trond Johannesen
behaviour. Many inmates find these obligations to be advantages rather
than
Post by Trond Johannesen
"duties". Our aim is to increase the inmate's ability to manage a life
without drugs and crime after they have been released. We want to give the
inmates an education and give them a more positive view on life and
society.
Post by Trond Johannesen
To resist and not succumb to drugs is very difficult. Still it is clear
that
Post by Trond Johannesen
we have achieved an exemplary model of prisoner confinement. The whole
system in the unit is aimed at the possibility of rehabilitation, of
returning to normal life. And here we involuntarily believe that it
truly
Post by Joe
is
Post by Trond Johannesen
rehabilitation, and not punishment. Inmates need the maximum adjustment to
normal life before leaving prison, I believe, and this is not at all easy
after a long term. That is why the Osterøy unit have such a free regime.
It
Post by Trond Johannesen
is in society's interest to get back a full-fledged citizen. It's better
to
Post by Trond Johannesen
have that kind of neighbour than someone who spent many years in a cellar
and wants revenge on society.
Many of the inmates also participate in the "Program activity" were the
aim
Post by Trond Johannesen
are crime prevention. Osterøy unit offers tree courses, "New Start", which
is based on "Cognitive Skills Training Program" after a Canadian model.
The
Post by Trond Johannesen
program includes 36 sessions, each 2 hours. The purpose is to teach every
single participant to show a more conscious attitude regarding his own
future, through focus on what shapes life, namely the decisions we make.
We
Post by Trond Johannesen
also have a Canadian substance drug program and an English Anger
management
Post by Trond Johannesen
program. These courses are the prison officer's responsibility.
The unit have 28 employees. A principal officer is the leader of the
division. Osterøy unit also has a welfare officer, a leader of leisure
activities, working foreman and Prison officers. An essential part of the
job of a Prison officer is to support and motivate inmates to use their
period of incarceration constructively. This includes positive use of the
period in prison and post-release plans, which the inmate and the prison
will actively follow up. I believe that the only rehabilitation that could
work properly would be individual treatment. Inmates do respond to
rehabilitative efforts aimed at personal and individual correction or
behaviour modification. I supervise inmates and do a lot of
environmental
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
work. Like all Prison Officers, I carry no sidearm, baton or other
accoutrements of power. The only thing I have in my belt is a key and a
cell-phone. I do not ware uniform. To work close together with other
people
Post by Trond Johannesen
are demanding, but also rewarding. I believe that prisons are a reflection
of the society.
The ethical foundation says that penal reactions are to be humanely
enforced
Post by Trond Johannesen
in ways that ensure both the well-being and the safety of society. The
inmates are to be protected against unfair and arbitrary reactions. The
enforcement of sentence or order is to be based on the needs and the total
life situation of the inmate and is aimed at giving full support to his or
her efforts to live a law-abiding life and based on humanity, legal
protection and equality before the law.
Trond Johannesen http://www.straffet.com
Joe
2004-06-24 00:11:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by rl
I've got a better idea.
Let's all pay homage to the Great and Venerable Europeans who are smarter,
better educated, smell better, are more wonderful, drive better cars, live
longer, have better marriages, paint better, invent better, eat better food,
are more tolerant, have the good sense to make drugs legal, are more wise,
and are <just about any standard you want to put in> better than anything in
America.
Free-er ?
Post by rl
We can all tell things are better in Europe because of the mass exodus of
Americans emigrating there.
Unfortunately, most of the people who would move there cannot because the
laws across international borders are all rigged to prevent the movement of
anyone with a felony. If it were'nt for this invisible fence "keeping people
in" - then you just might see something like what you described.
Post by rl
I guess when the day comes that I think things are better there, I'll be
moving to....but that day hasn't happened for me yet.
You see I lived there for two years.
Just let me know wherever people like you are living - and I'll take the
other place.
Post by rl
And while I loved all the beautiful, wonderful things I saw and loved all
the wonderful people (except for the fucked up French) I met....to me, it
couldn't compare to the USA.
So I guess I'll just have resign myself to the fact that I'm going to be
scoffed at, ridiculed, be the object of hatred, harassed, kidnapped,
beheaded, etc. etc. if I'm going to continue to live in the most prosperous,
powerful nation the world has ever known.
Of COURSE there's prosperity. Everyone who would have been homeless is
currently behind BARS. Thats' why they call it "stars and bars". Some are
stars, the rest behind bars.

We have something like 1/100 th the population of China in prison. If we
cram them 100 to a cell, we've got enough room for that entire country.
Post by rl
I guess I'll just live with it.
Post by Joe
Thanks for the info. European's are geniuses. But you're wasting you're
breath in here, because mostly it's all people from the US, we've got
2,000,000 cows in the barn and the only one getting milked is John Q
Taxpayer.
Our approach toward inmates is similar to our approach toward the
indigenous
Post by Joe
people who once lived here - "The only good inmate is a dead inmate". Now,
while that may seem cruel, and perhaps it is, it might just make a damn
fine
Post by Joe
movie one day so lets just leave it alone and see how this thing plays
out.
Post by Joe
Shall we ?
Post by Trond Johannesen
Care and confinement (By Trond Johannesen)
http://www.straffet.com/eng/index.htm
Prison Officer since I left Norwegian Correctional Service Staff Academy
in
Post by Trond Johannesen
1988. I work in Bergen Prison the Osterøy unit. Total prison capacity in
Norway is less than 3000 and all prisons are financed and administered
by
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
the State.
Norwegian Correctional Service Staff Academy (www.krus.no) has some 200
officers under training at any given time. The training lasts for two
years,
Post by Trond Johannesen
consisting both periods of lectures and studies as well as of practical
working experience at establishments in the Correctional Service. I
guess
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
this is the longest education for prison officers in the world. Both
males
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
and females are encouraged to apply. The Academy gives training in
professional conduct, and development of character and personality is
emphasized.
Bergen Prison (www.bergenfengsel.no) is a high security prison (closed
prison). It has 227 inmates in every category of security; included
are
Post by rl
62
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
in low security. It is a modern, dynamic, interactive prison regarding
treatment of prisoners and use of methods. Material conditions are of
high
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
standard and the majority of the inmates can participate in a range of
activities.
The inmates have a diversity of different personal resources and
qualification. Bergen Prison is build for differentiation and
progression
Post by Joe
in
Post by Trond Johannesen
serving a sentence. This structure can give the inmate a possibility to
serve in up to fem steps. From the A unit were inmates mostly are
remanded
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
in custody, to the B unit were inmates are serving their sentence, and
than
Post by Trond Johannesen
proceeded to the C unit. The C unit is a contract section. Serving on
contract is a "Mutual Agreement Programming", and an alternative way of
serving a sentence. The inmates agree with the prison management to stay
away from drugs while they are serving their sentence. The aim of
contract
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
serving is to keep the inmates drug-free while they are serving their
sentence. From the C unit further to the Osterøy Unit a low security
unit.
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
And at the end the inmates are serving in the day-release unit, the D
unit,
Post by Trond Johannesen
the day-release unit is a low security unit where inmates work or go to
school outside the prison during the day. In the afternoon and evening
they
Post by Trond Johannesen
must be in the unit. Our goal is to have the right inmate in the right
unit
Post by Trond Johannesen
at the right time.
I work in a low security unit in the Prison, where the threshold to
society
Post by Trond Johannesen
are very low. Bergen Prison Osterøy unit is an open institution, with
minimum security. A prison without-bars. In the unit we have 27 male
and
Post by Joe
4
Post by Trond Johannesen
female inmates. Inmates, who want to serve their sentence in The Osterøy
unit, have to apply. Application for transfer to The Osterøy unit is
done
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
from the prison, where the inmate has started serving his or her
sentence.
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
Inmates with long sentences are given priority. Today the average length
of
Post by Trond Johannesen
sentence of our inmates are 4,5 years. The unit is located on an island,
Ulvsnesøy in one of Norway's many fjords. Ulvsnesøy has been a closed
society ever since the government established a center for delinquents
here
Post by Trond Johannesen
in 1882. To relieve the prison system, it was converted into a gaol in
1980,
Post by Trond Johannesen
and since it's been largely inaccessible to most right-minded citizens.
The
Post by Trond Johannesen
only way you can see the natural splendour of the Island in its entirety
is
Post by Trond Johannesen
if you've broken the law.
Inmates move about freely and live in wooden houses. Only the animals
ever
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
spend time behind bars at Ulvsnesøy. Instead they move about in the open
from 7 AM till 11 PM, tending to their chores. The inmates are obligated
to
Post by Trond Johannesen
work or get an education. On the island there are many old buildings,
where
Post by Trond Johannesen
the inmates are doing the maintenance. We also have a small farm with
sheep,
Post by Trond Johannesen
pigs, fowl and one horse. Inmates who are not working are getting an
education. Division Osterøy offers primary and lower secondary school
education. Some are also taking general subjects. My experience is that
the
Post by Trond Johannesen
more education received, the less likely an individual is to be
re-arrested
Post by Trond Johannesen
or re-imprisoned.
They live in small wooden houses equipped with 4 - 6 bedrooms, a
bathroom,
Post by Joe
a
Post by Trond Johannesen
kitchen and a living room. Each place is a home where doors are never
locked. Inmate at our unit is better behaved and less likely to engage
in
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
violence.
Unlike a closed prison an open prison like The Osterøy unit is designed
primarily to reward good behaviour with greater trust and meaningful
work.
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
Here inmates have signed a contract to stay away from drugs and they've
agreed to random urine tests and breathalysers or alcohol tests any time
of
Post by Trond Johannesen
day, and if the test should show positive, they're back in the high
security
Post by Trond Johannesen
unit. In return they receive more generous visiting rights, longer leave
and
Post by Trond Johannesen
greater personal freedom.
Osterøy unit give the inmate a possibility to serve in an environment
free
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
from narcotics. Meaningful serving of the sentence in an active,
positive
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
and drug-free environment is emphasised as one of the most important
advantages of this form of serving. Inmates also have an obligation to
contribute to a good environment in the unit and a clear obligation for
good
Post by Trond Johannesen
behaviour. Many inmates find these obligations to be advantages rather
than
Post by Trond Johannesen
"duties". Our aim is to increase the inmate's ability to manage a life
without drugs and crime after they have been released. We want to give
the
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
inmates an education and give them a more positive view on life and
society.
Post by Trond Johannesen
To resist and not succumb to drugs is very difficult. Still it is clear
that
Post by Trond Johannesen
we have achieved an exemplary model of prisoner confinement. The whole
system in the unit is aimed at the possibility of rehabilitation, of
returning to normal life. And here we involuntarily believe that it
truly
Post by Joe
is
Post by Trond Johannesen
rehabilitation, and not punishment. Inmates need the maximum
adjustment
Post by rl
to
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
normal life before leaving prison, I believe, and this is not at all
easy
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
after a long term. That is why the Osterøy unit have such a free regime.
It
Post by Trond Johannesen
is in society's interest to get back a full-fledged citizen. It's better
to
Post by Trond Johannesen
have that kind of neighbour than someone who spent many years in a
cellar
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
and wants revenge on society.
Many of the inmates also participate in the "Program activity" were the
aim
Post by Trond Johannesen
are crime prevention. Osterøy unit offers tree courses, "New Start",
which
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
is based on "Cognitive Skills Training Program" after a Canadian model.
The
Post by Trond Johannesen
program includes 36 sessions, each 2 hours. The purpose is to teach
every
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
single participant to show a more conscious attitude regarding his own
future, through focus on what shapes life, namely the decisions we make.
We
Post by Trond Johannesen
also have a Canadian substance drug program and an English Anger
management
Post by Trond Johannesen
program. These courses are the prison officer's responsibility.
The unit have 28 employees. A principal officer is the leader of the
division. Osterøy unit also has a welfare officer, a leader of leisure
activities, working foreman and Prison officers. An essential part of
the
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
job of a Prison officer is to support and motivate inmates to use their
period of incarceration constructively. This includes positive use of
the
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
period in prison and post-release plans, which the inmate and the prison
will actively follow up. I believe that the only rehabilitation that
could
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
work properly would be individual treatment. Inmates do respond to
rehabilitative efforts aimed at personal and individual correction or
behaviour modification. I supervise inmates and do a lot of
environmental
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
work. Like all Prison Officers, I carry no sidearm, baton or other
accoutrements of power. The only thing I have in my belt is a key and a
cell-phone. I do not ware uniform. To work close together with other
people
Post by Trond Johannesen
are demanding, but also rewarding. I believe that prisons are a
reflection
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
of the society.
The ethical foundation says that penal reactions are to be humanely
enforced
Post by Trond Johannesen
in ways that ensure both the well-being and the safety of society. The
inmates are to be protected against unfair and arbitrary reactions. The
enforcement of sentence or order is to be based on the needs and the
total
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
life situation of the inmate and is aimed at giving full support to
his
Post by rl
or
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
her efforts to live a law-abiding life and based on humanity, legal
protection and equality before the law.
Trond Johannesen http://www.straffet.com
rl
2004-06-24 01:22:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe
Post by rl
I've got a better idea.
Let's all pay homage to the Great and Venerable Europeans who are smarter,
better educated, smell better, are more wonderful, drive better cars, live
longer, have better marriages, paint better, invent better, eat better
food,
Post by rl
are more tolerant, have the good sense to make drugs legal, are more wise,
and are <just about any standard you want to put in> better than
anything
Post by Joe
in
Post by rl
America.
Free-er ?
lmao!
Better go live there, Joe. If socialism = freedom, then its definately the
place for you.
Post by Joe
Post by rl
We can all tell things are better in Europe because of the mass exodus of
Americans emigrating there.
Unfortunately, most of the people who would move there cannot because the
laws across international borders are all rigged to prevent the movement of
anyone with a felony. If it were'nt for this invisible fence "keeping people
in" - then you just might see something like what you described.
You mean all the ex-felons would move to France!!??
Oh no!
How would we survive?
Post by Joe
Post by rl
I guess when the day comes that I think things are better there, I'll be
moving to....but that day hasn't happened for me yet.
You see I lived there for two years.
Just let me know wherever people like you are living - and I'll take the
other place.
People like me?
You mean people who don't want to live near felons? Or people who think we
should follow rules?
I have to ask you again:
I guess I don't see the downside for me?
Post by Joe
Post by rl
And while I loved all the beautiful, wonderful things I saw and loved all
the wonderful people (except for the fucked up French) I met....to me, it
couldn't compare to the USA.
So I guess I'll just have resign myself to the fact that I'm going to be
scoffed at, ridiculed, be the object of hatred, harassed, kidnapped,
beheaded, etc. etc. if I'm going to continue to live in the most
prosperous,
Post by rl
powerful nation the world has ever known.
Of COURSE there's prosperity. Everyone who would have been homeless is
currently behind BARS. Thats' why they call it "stars and bars". Some are
stars, the rest behind bars.
Better get used to it if you're moving to Europe.
You think the split between the "haves" and the "have nots" is big here?
You ain't seen nothing, Baby. At least we have a middle class.
Post by Joe
We have something like 1/100 th the population of China in prison. If we
cram them 100 to a cell, we've got enough room for that entire country.
yawn.
Another, "Poor Widdle Crimm" story?
Post by Joe
Post by rl
I guess I'll just live with it.
Post by Joe
Thanks for the info. European's are geniuses. But you're wasting you're
breath in here, because mostly it's all people from the US, we've got
2,000,000 cows in the barn and the only one getting milked is John Q
Taxpayer.
Our approach toward inmates is similar to our approach toward the
indigenous
Post by Joe
people who once lived here - "The only good inmate is a dead inmate".
Now,
Post by rl
Post by Joe
while that may seem cruel, and perhaps it is, it might just make a damn
fine
Post by Joe
movie one day so lets just leave it alone and see how this thing plays
out.
Post by Joe
Shall we ?
Post by Trond Johannesen
Care and confinement (By Trond Johannesen)
http://www.straffet.com/eng/index.htm
Prison Officer since I left Norwegian Correctional Service Staff
Academy
Post by rl
Post by Joe
in
Post by Trond Johannesen
1988. I work in Bergen Prison the Osterøy unit. Total prison
capacity
Post by Joe
in
Post by rl
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
Norway is less than 3000 and all prisons are financed and administered
by
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
the State.
Norwegian Correctional Service Staff Academy (www.krus.no) has some
200
Post by rl
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
officers under training at any given time. The training lasts for two
years,
Post by Trond Johannesen
consisting both periods of lectures and studies as well as of
practical
Post by rl
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
working experience at establishments in the Correctional Service. I
guess
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
this is the longest education for prison officers in the world. Both
males
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
and females are encouraged to apply. The Academy gives training in
professional conduct, and development of character and personality is
emphasized.
Bergen Prison (www.bergenfengsel.no) is a high security prison (closed
prison). It has 227 inmates in every category of security; included
are
Post by rl
62
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
in low security. It is a modern, dynamic, interactive prison regarding
treatment of prisoners and use of methods. Material conditions are of
high
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
standard and the majority of the inmates can participate in a range of
activities.
The inmates have a diversity of different personal resources and
qualification. Bergen Prison is build for differentiation and
progression
Post by Joe
in
Post by Trond Johannesen
serving a sentence. This structure can give the inmate a possibility
to
Post by rl
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
serve in up to fem steps. From the A unit were inmates mostly are
remanded
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
in custody, to the B unit were inmates are serving their sentence, and
than
Post by Trond Johannesen
proceeded to the C unit. The C unit is a contract section. Serving on
contract is a "Mutual Agreement Programming", and an alternative way
of
Post by rl
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
serving a sentence. The inmates agree with the prison management to
stay
Post by rl
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
away from drugs while they are serving their sentence. The aim of
contract
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
serving is to keep the inmates drug-free while they are serving their
sentence. From the C unit further to the Osterøy Unit a low security
unit.
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
And at the end the inmates are serving in the day-release unit, the D
unit,
Post by Trond Johannesen
the day-release unit is a low security unit where inmates work or go
to
Post by rl
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
school outside the prison during the day. In the afternoon and evening
they
Post by Trond Johannesen
must be in the unit. Our goal is to have the right inmate in the right
unit
Post by Trond Johannesen
at the right time.
I work in a low security unit in the Prison, where the threshold to
society
Post by Trond Johannesen
are very low. Bergen Prison Osterøy unit is an open institution, with
minimum security. A prison without-bars. In the unit we have 27 male
and
Post by Joe
4
Post by Trond Johannesen
female inmates. Inmates, who want to serve their sentence in The
Osterøy
Post by rl
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
unit, have to apply. Application for transfer to The Osterøy unit is
done
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
from the prison, where the inmate has started serving his or her
sentence.
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
Inmates with long sentences are given priority. Today the average
length
Post by rl
Post by Joe
of
Post by Trond Johannesen
sentence of our inmates are 4,5 years. The unit is located on an
island,
Post by rl
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
Ulvsnesøy in one of Norway's many fjords. Ulvsnesøy has been a closed
society ever since the government established a center for delinquents
here
Post by Trond Johannesen
in 1882. To relieve the prison system, it was converted into a gaol in
1980,
Post by Trond Johannesen
and since it's been largely inaccessible to most right-minded
citizens.
Post by rl
Post by Joe
The
Post by Trond Johannesen
only way you can see the natural splendour of the Island in its
entirety
Post by rl
Post by Joe
is
Post by Trond Johannesen
if you've broken the law.
Inmates move about freely and live in wooden houses. Only the animals
ever
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
spend time behind bars at Ulvsnesøy. Instead they move about in the
open
Post by rl
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
from 7 AM till 11 PM, tending to their chores. The inmates are
obligated
Post by rl
Post by Joe
to
Post by Trond Johannesen
work or get an education. On the island there are many old buildings,
where
Post by Trond Johannesen
the inmates are doing the maintenance. We also have a small farm with
sheep,
Post by Trond Johannesen
pigs, fowl and one horse. Inmates who are not working are getting an
education. Division Osterøy offers primary and lower secondary school
education. Some are also taking general subjects. My experience is
that
Post by rl
Post by Joe
the
Post by Trond Johannesen
more education received, the less likely an individual is to be
re-arrested
Post by Trond Johannesen
or re-imprisoned.
They live in small wooden houses equipped with 4 - 6 bedrooms, a
bathroom,
Post by Joe
a
Post by Trond Johannesen
kitchen and a living room. Each place is a home where doors are never
locked. Inmate at our unit is better behaved and less likely to engage
in
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
violence.
Unlike a closed prison an open prison like The Osterøy unit is
designed
Post by rl
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
primarily to reward good behaviour with greater trust and meaningful
work.
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
Here inmates have signed a contract to stay away from drugs and
they've
Post by rl
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
agreed to random urine tests and breathalysers or alcohol tests any
time
Post by rl
Post by Joe
of
Post by Trond Johannesen
day, and if the test should show positive, they're back in the high
security
Post by Trond Johannesen
unit. In return they receive more generous visiting rights, longer
leave
Post by rl
Post by Joe
and
Post by Trond Johannesen
greater personal freedom.
Osterøy unit give the inmate a possibility to serve in an environment
free
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
from narcotics. Meaningful serving of the sentence in an active,
positive
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
and drug-free environment is emphasised as one of the most important
advantages of this form of serving. Inmates also have an obligation to
contribute to a good environment in the unit and a clear obligation
for
Post by rl
Post by Joe
good
Post by Trond Johannesen
behaviour. Many inmates find these obligations to be advantages
rather
Post by rl
Post by Joe
than
Post by Trond Johannesen
"duties". Our aim is to increase the inmate's ability to manage a life
without drugs and crime after they have been released. We want to give
the
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
inmates an education and give them a more positive view on life and
society.
Post by Trond Johannesen
To resist and not succumb to drugs is very difficult. Still it is
clear
Post by rl
Post by Joe
that
Post by Trond Johannesen
we have achieved an exemplary model of prisoner confinement. The whole
system in the unit is aimed at the possibility of rehabilitation, of
returning to normal life. And here we involuntarily believe that it
truly
Post by Joe
is
Post by Trond Johannesen
rehabilitation, and not punishment. Inmates need the maximum
adjustment
Post by rl
to
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
normal life before leaving prison, I believe, and this is not at all
easy
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
after a long term. That is why the Osterøy unit have such a free
regime.
Post by rl
Post by Joe
It
Post by Trond Johannesen
is in society's interest to get back a full-fledged citizen. It's
better
Post by rl
Post by Joe
to
Post by Trond Johannesen
have that kind of neighbour than someone who spent many years in a
cellar
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
and wants revenge on society.
Many of the inmates also participate in the "Program activity" were
the
Post by rl
Post by Joe
aim
Post by Trond Johannesen
are crime prevention. Osterøy unit offers tree courses, "New Start",
which
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
is based on "Cognitive Skills Training Program" after a Canadian
model.
Post by rl
Post by Joe
The
Post by Trond Johannesen
program includes 36 sessions, each 2 hours. The purpose is to teach
every
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
single participant to show a more conscious attitude regarding his own
future, through focus on what shapes life, namely the decisions we
make.
Post by rl
Post by Joe
We
Post by Trond Johannesen
also have a Canadian substance drug program and an English Anger
management
Post by Trond Johannesen
program. These courses are the prison officer's responsibility.
The unit have 28 employees. A principal officer is the leader of the
division. Osterøy unit also has a welfare officer, a leader of leisure
activities, working foreman and Prison officers. An essential part of
the
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
job of a Prison officer is to support and motivate inmates to use
their
Post by rl
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
period of incarceration constructively. This includes positive use of
the
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
period in prison and post-release plans, which the inmate and the
prison
Post by rl
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
will actively follow up. I believe that the only rehabilitation that
could
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
work properly would be individual treatment. Inmates do respond to
rehabilitative efforts aimed at personal and individual correction or
behaviour modification. I supervise inmates and do a lot of
environmental
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
work. Like all Prison Officers, I carry no sidearm, baton or other
accoutrements of power. The only thing I have in my belt is a key
and
Post by Joe
a
Post by rl
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
cell-phone. I do not ware uniform. To work close together with other
people
Post by Trond Johannesen
are demanding, but also rewarding. I believe that prisons are a
reflection
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
of the society.
The ethical foundation says that penal reactions are to be humanely
enforced
Post by Trond Johannesen
in ways that ensure both the well-being and the safety of society. The
inmates are to be protected against unfair and arbitrary reactions.
The
Post by rl
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
enforcement of sentence or order is to be based on the needs and the
total
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
life situation of the inmate and is aimed at giving full support to
his
Post by rl
or
Post by Joe
Post by Trond Johannesen
her efforts to live a law-abiding life and based on humanity, legal
protection and equality before the law.
Trond Johannesen http://www.straffet.com
Len
2004-06-26 23:28:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe
Post by rl
I've got a better idea.
Let's all pay homage to the Great and Venerable Europeans who are smarter,
better educated, smell better, are more wonderful, drive better cars, live
longer, have better marriages, paint better, invent better, eat better
food,
Post by rl
are more tolerant, have the good sense to make drugs legal, are more wise,
and are <just about any standard you want to put in> better than anything
in
Post by rl
America.
Free-er ?
The first clue of the cluelessly challenged is to go after the
language. Good going, but we digress.........
Post by Joe
Post by rl
We can all tell things are better in Europe because of the mass exodus of
Americans emigrating there.
Unfortunately, most of the people who would move there cannot because the
laws across international borders are all rigged to prevent the movement of
anyone with a felony. If it were'nt for this invisible fence "keeping people
in" - then you just might see something like what you described.
Yes, that "national" thingy. Kind of like the clothes thingy, why wear
them? We are all just "free" and they should make free cars, food, and
leave butterflies to run in the wind, as free spirits in this free
earth. Except for EVIL capitalists and Bush. HE is the TRUE problem!
'bout it, Bunky?
Post by Joe
Post by rl
I guess when the day comes that I think things are better there, I'll be
moving to....but that day hasn't happened for me yet.
You see I lived there for two years.
Just let me know wherever people like you are living - and I'll take the
other place.
See you in hell.
Post by Joe
Post by rl
And while I loved all the beautiful, wonderful things I saw and loved all
the wonderful people (except for the fucked up French) I met....to me, it
couldn't compare to the USA.
So I guess I'll just have resign myself to the fact that I'm going to be
scoffed at, ridiculed, be the object of hatred, harassed, kidnapped,
beheaded, etc. etc. if I'm going to continue to live in the most
prosperous,
Post by rl
powerful nation the world has ever known.
Of COURSE there's prosperity. Everyone who would have been homeless is
currently behind BARS. Thats' why they call it "stars and bars". Some are
stars, the rest behind bars.
Come on, now. Did you learn that the night you spent in Juvi?
Post by Joe
We have something like 1/100 th the population of China in prison. If we
cram them 100 to a cell, we've got enough room for that entire country.
The whole country of China is a prison. Besides we know what they do
with their prisoners. We COULD try it hear, but the drug lifestyle and
diseases would allow only one kidney in thousand to be harvested. In
California they gave an inmate a heart in a transplant! How many
people did they jump over for that heart???
Thanks for comparing US to China.
You are beyond facts, so this should be about the last missive.


==

Socialism in general has a record of failure so blatant
that only an intellectual could ignore or evade it. -- Thomas Sowell
Joe
2004-06-27 04:30:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Len
Post by Joe
Just let me know wherever people like you are living - and I'll take the
other place.
See you in hell.
Good one. That was funny.

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